All the Kings Men
Being a man of character with Christian values is a challenge in world that has lost its way. All the Kings Men is a podcast for men who want to leave a Godly legacy. Weekly guests share their stories of how God made them victorious over life's struggles. All the Kings Men is a ministry podcast of Restoration Place. Join our Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100090682981273!
All the Kings Men
Escaping the Spiritual Prison: A Tale of Faith, Freedom, and Authenticity
Have you ever felt trapped within the confines of an overbearing religious community, yearning for a breath of freedom? That's precisely the harrowing narrative you'll hear from a fellow podcaster, Eric Skwarczynski. Born and bred in the restrictive environment of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, he lifts the veil on the heartbreaking journey of growing up under stifling rules and the shattering betrayal when a sexual predator found refuge within his congregation.
The story doesn’t end there; Eric also recounts his courageous escape from this spiritual prison and his inspiring journey towards discovering a faith that was truly his own. Together we navigate the labyrinth of church leadership, exploring the power dynamics, manipulation, and the mental torture that often accompanies spiritual abuse. Trapped in fear, Eric’s incredible transformation into a beacon of freedom and authenticity is a testament to perseverance.
In the midst of discussing the darker side of religious communities, we also delve into the healing process with our guest, Chandra Sapp. We look beyond the scars of trauma and hurt, shining a light on the importance of discovering Jesus on your own terms. Join us as we explore the struggle to reconcile faith with personal beliefs, the liberating experience of finding a church that nurtures personal growth, and the significance of embracing our imperfections. This episode is not just a conversation about spiritual abuse, it's a roadmap to recovery, authenticity, and an unshakeable faith.
You can reach Pastor Tony at akm@myrpt.org.
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Welcome to All. The Kings Men, a ministry podcast of the Men's Ministry of Restoration Place, tallahassee. Warning listeners to this podcast will hear authentic, life-changing stories from men who know Jesus and have experienced His work in their life. He prepared to be impacted by their stories and relationship with Jesus. Here is your host, pastor Tony.
Tony Tolson:Tolson, good evening, good day, thank you again for joining us for All the Kings Men.
Tony Tolson:Today we're going to have a bit of a different episode, a little bit more serious than maybe we typically do, because I want to talk about something that's really important to the church, to men and women of faith, and that is spiritual abuse, church abuse and how do we, as Christians, recover from this and mitigate against it.
Tony Tolson:And so, instead of having a man on the podcast today, we've got a woman of God that will be joining us, who's a member of our church, who came out of a situation that we'll talk more about in a bit, but I want us to take a minute just to set this up and help you understand a little bit about what it's like to be in a situation where you have grown up, and grown up in your spiritual life, specifically in a world that is so small and so controlled.
Tony Tolson:And I'm going to introduce you to that through another podcast called the Preacher Boy Podcast with Eric Skorskinski, who I listen to on a regular basis as I continually try to learn about how people recover from these type of things, and I also, just as a disclaimer, while I listen to this podcast, I don't subscribe to everything that they say or everything they believe. Eric has deconstructed his faith and doesn't necessarily profess to be a believer today, but he is fair in his assessment and I think it's just such a powerful piece here that I want you to hear a talk that he gave at a conference, and this is coming from his podcast just posted a day or so. Let's introduce this now, this topic of spiritual and church abuse, and this gives you Eric's story.
Eric Skwarczynski:Enjoy. I'll never forget when I was 17 years old, teary-eyed at summer camp and, through clenched teeth, said the words you are supposed to protect us. I was talking to my youth pastor of all people, someone that I should have trusted more than anybody, someone I looked up to and, until that moment, someone that I did trust more than anybody. I looked to him like a father figure. But before I talk about that pivotal moment of betrayal at 17 years old, I want to take you back to my childhood. As Ashley said in my introduction, I was born and raised within the independent fundamental Baptist church. I'm sure there's many in this group that are familiar with them, but there's probably some that aren't. So I'll explain. The IFB is a hyper-conservative sect of Christianity and they're by design not structured as part of a traditional denomination. They're not like the Southern Baptist Convention or any other religious organized group that would be part of a council or a group of people. But it is disingenuous to say that all of these estimated 5,000 churches are truly independent. It's a little hard to explain if you're not in it, but perhaps the best way to attempt to explain it is that, while most religious denominations have kind of a top-down triangular structure. Like the Catholic Church, the IFB is made up of little circles. There's circles usually built around fundamentalist Bible colleges, so the college that the church pastor went to is usually the circle that you're in. There's some big colleges you may have heard of, like Bob Jones University, hiles Anderson College, pensacola Christian College, west Coast Baptist College, golden State Baptist College, marinath Baptist College and Crown College. My church was a little bit rare in the sense that there were multiple IFB colleges represented by the staff. My pastor was from Hiles Anderson, heath pastor from Pensacola, the rest of the staff were from West Coast. So we're a little bit of a Frankenstein's monster of IFB influences and that was probably a benefit in some ways. There was some diversity in ministry methodologies and backgrounds and kept us from falling one specific offshoot a little bit too closely. But we still had some of the weird oddities of the IFB. To give you a sense of some of the oddities you know not going to movies, not listen to music that had a beat, not watching R rated movies, not dancing and not drinking. There was a couple things that made us what they would say a peculiar people.
Eric Skwarczynski:It's no exaggeration to say that I spent seven days a week on the church's six acre property. My parents were both on staff at the church and at the school on Sunday mornings, sunday nights and Wednesday nights. I attended church services. From Monday through Friday. I attended a small private school in the same building operated by the church and the people that attended the church, and then on Saturday mornings, I'd load up in a 12 passenger van and go out in the community and surrounding cities to knock on doors and invite people to join us at church, which they called soul winning. So from birth to 18 years old, I went to church and school all on the same campus in the same L shaped building on those same six acres. More accurately, that L shaped building could have been described as an L shaped bubble.
Eric Skwarczynski:I thought that I was the one who had the truth about everything. I felt safe. I felt like everybody else was wrong. We had all the answers and there was nothing that was going to break that bubble. And I know there's a lot of people in this group who are watching that came from some form of high control group or religious organization or abusive business where they felt the same way at some point. But nothing can happen to us here as long as we're in the safety of our bubble. We looked at the outside world as dangerous.
Eric Skwarczynski:That bubble burst around 16 or 17 when a sexual predator was relocated to our church as part of a cover up. This man immediately became a Sunday school teacher at our church, immediately began leading music, leading worship at the church, singing specials every single Sunday, and it was just pure happenstance that I Googled his name and I was the first one at least I thought I was the first one to find out. The reason he was at our church was because he had sexually molested a 15 year old girl at his dad's church in Chico, california. When I found out that information, my bubble just burst. I talk about this every time I'm on a podcast. I talk about this often online.
Eric Skwarczynski:All of my sense of community and safety and relationships and worldview and politics and religion was wrapped in this place that I had deemed perfect, that I had deemed safe. And all of a sudden, just like that, that bubble burst. How could this happen? In my tight knit, safe, religious bubble that I've grown up in my entire life, the people I trusted went there. The leaders were people that were like family to me.
Eric Skwarczynski:And my bubble burst a little bit more when I started telling my youth pastor, my pastor, my staff, my parents, people I'd known my entire life what I had discovered and nobody seemed to care. I was mocked by some. I was ignored by others. I was told and I know so many people have heard this be better, not bitter, forgive, forget All of the quick semantic stop signs people throw our way to get us to stop asking questions, to stop raising our voices, and in that moment I was silent. I felt smaller than small. I felt violated. Like I said, my bubble had burst. I felt scared and I want to take a second. This is not something I even meant to say, but Thinking about it in that sense too, I'm just someone who found out this happened in my bubble. So when I sit across from people and do interviews and I talk to people about abuse-save experience or things that have happened, I can't imagine how much more these feelings are amplified when it's happening directly to you.
Eric Skwarczynski:All the emotions that I felt intensified at summer camp, like I mentioned before, when my youth pastor who up to that point I was at his house at least once a week. I would go and run ministries with him. We were close, I would say like a father-son relationship. He revealed to me that he actually knew about the abusers past before I had found out. I was absolutely stunned and it was the shock and fear that came from that that pushed out the words you are supposed to protect us 17-year-old me. Regardless of what the church said was right, he was supposed to protect us. The other leaders in the church were supposed to protect us. The pastor was supposed to protect us. The church was supposed to protect us, but it didn't. And now, nearly 10 years later, that L-shaped toxic bubble of a building is still a warm home to that sexual predator. While I'm made really uncomfortable if I ever come on the campus, he still stands on the stage every single Sunday and leads worship. The church, like many institutions, has failed to protect the right people and is devoting all of its energy, for whatever reason, to protect the wrong people.
Eric Skwarczynski:The scariest thing that I've realized, in the last couple of years especially, is that my small childhood church in Southern California is not an anomaly. Over the last couple of years, I've had run-ins with people from all over the country, even all over the world, who've had the same experience, across circles of the IFB, locations, sizes of church. I've encountered a lot of stories just like the one I've experienced. I've even gotten people outside the IFB talking to people like Sarah Edmondson from Nexium, or talking with people like Megan was mentioned, who put together a database of abuse in Southern Baptist churches. Across churches, across religions, across denominations, across organizations. These stories seem to happen on repeat. There are two little differences here and there, but the same things seem to be happening over and over again and in my case, and in the case that I'm sure many can resonate with, the church has failed to protect.
Tony Tolson:That's a very powerful word from Eric, not a story that is not often repeated. And many of you may know that I come out of also the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement and while there was a lot of positive there, a lot of training that was done, I learned a lot about Jesus Christ. I came to know him as my Savior through those ministries. I was discipled by the men and women of those churches and I'm thankful for much of that. But I, like Eric, learned that we were safe only within the bubble of the church, that the world was out to get us. It wasn't the devil as much as it was the world. Now, the devil was the world and the world was the devil.
Tony Tolson:But sin was contagious. If you are around sinners, you are more likely to sin. Well, that's partially true, but it's not 100% true. Just because you're around someone who's a sinner, that doesn't mean you are going to sin.
Tony Tolson:But we were taught as young people that, while this statement is also partially true, it's not completely true. That you are or will become like your friends. You can be a leader. Not everyone's a leader. Not everyone is capable of withstanding temptation and influence, and we as parents now, as a parent, I know that I have children that I could totally trust in any environment within limit, of course, with some oversight and I have children that needed a lot more handholding and I need to know where they were at all times. But to have a blanket statement that says you're only really safe here, everything that you teach is about everyone else is wrong, and everyone that is not here is wrong, is not the way Jesus Christ designed his church to be. And so I want to introduce to you, Chandra get real close to that microphone and love on it. The closer you are, the better off you are. As far as us hearing Chandra tell us a little bit about where you came from and how it relates to our topic today.
Chandra Sapp:Well, first, thank you for having me today, pastor Tony, on this broadcast, and it's a very important topic. Like you said, it's not really talked about much, but it's important. I came from a small church recently as recently as last year before I joined Restoration Place and I was a member of that church for 15 years. So I started there when I was in graduate school, so I was in my mid-20s when I started there, and me being gone from that place for a year.
Chandra Sapp:In hindsight, I look back and just everything that was just played, it, just it rings so true to me, because those are the same things that I experienced, thinking that the church that I was in, the people I were around I shouldn't be around anyone else, and if I ever stepped outside of that parameter, that bubble, I would be go to hell or I would sin, you know, and just saying this is the only way, what we're teaching.
Chandra Sapp:There's no other teaching out there, that's right. So, like I said, just to hear that, it brings back a lot of similarities in what I dealt with. But now that I'm on the other side of that and a member of a place like Restoration Place that really teaches the Word of God and allows you to walk in freedom, in your walk with God, without all these rules and regulations. I'm like, wow, I really was a part of something like that, not knowing at the time that it was abuse. You know, because when you're used to something you're so close to, it is so familiar to you, you think this is normal. So just to look back and look at the things over those past 15 years that I was told that I did, I'm like, wow, that wasn't God, that's not even in his word.
Tony Tolson:I remember I had bought a new pair of Nike's and I remember my pastor. I was an associate or children's pastor, youth pastor, something like this, I forget the title and I remember him telling me that I was sinning because of my vanity basically, I can't remember the exact words he used and that I needed to repent for those new shoes and understand I was a young, very young adult and I needed a pair of shoes. You know, and I was I'm still to this day not the guy that has 42 pair of shoes. I have like three or four pair of shoes.
Chandra Sapp:Like the average man.
Tony Tolson:Yeah. So I mean I've got one son that's got probably 30 or 40 pairs of shoes Like he shouldn't buy any more shoes ever. Okay, but I'm not that guy and I'm not. I'm very frugal. So I mean that was just one example. I mean there were so many examples of he actually told me one time obey me or leave.
Chandra Sapp:Oh yeah, you too.
Tony Tolson:He told me one time this is just one pastor that I was that the Holy Spirit had told him that I was backslidden and I needed to get right with God.
Tony Tolson:Several times and I knew in the way that I could prove that I was not backslidden was by following his leadership. And I remember just staring at him, looking at him going I can't believe this is coming out of somebody's mouth Because I had been taught enough in the word that I knew that the Holy Spirit was the convictor. I knew that there was no, there was nobody between me and Jesus. We didn't need a high priest any longer. So why do I, why would he tell him something he hadn't told me? And if he, if I was backslidden, I would hope that he would tell me. And that's what I said to him and that was considered disrespectful and rebellious.
Chandra Sapp:And me too. That sounds so familiar with the things that I experienced With me. It was like we had church like three days a week. Saturday we had choir rehearsal. There was no time to be away from those same 15 people that were at the church and they weren't optional.
Chandra Sapp:Yeah, it wasn't optional and if you weren't told but you were told, you get them saying indirectly like you weren't told you had to be a part of every church service, go to every event. But if you didn't, then when you came to church on Sunday you'll hear it from the pulpit.
Tony Tolson:From the pulpit.
Chandra Sapp:You would hear it.
Tony Tolson:I remember in one church I was at which wasn't an independent fundamental Baptist, it was a Southern Baptist church. It was an inner city church, so there was like I think there were seven or 10 nationalities in that church and at the pastor from the platform called out a young man who happened to look at his watch during the service. And the reason he looked at his watch is I had told all the young people I was the youth pastor there and worship pastor don't go out of the service. It's disrespectful to come in and out. He had to go to the bathroom and he knew that the service ended around noon. He just wanted to see how much longer it was gonna be. So he knew if he's gonna have to signal me that there's a problem, I'm gonna have to go In an effort to be respectful.
Tony Tolson:He got disrespected. This is his last time. What the pastor said from the platform is young man, you don't need to come back here if you're gonna be looking at your watch trying to tell me when I'm done preaching. And I thought what, where am I? This is representing me and my Lord, and this is what that was experiencing. You know, this is what I think the point of all of these things that we're talking about, these horror stories we could spend days talking about the wounding.
Chandra Sapp:Yeah.
Tony Tolson:I think it's important that we start to take a look at what did it take for you I and others to say that's enough. What was the line for you?
Chandra Sapp:Well, it started with me beating my husband. Now he was my fiance at the time and so when we would just, you know, just talking to know each other, and I would tell him you know the church I went to and the things I had to do and the things I was told he would be like that's not in the Bible. He was like, where are you getting this from? I'm like, well, you know, this is what my pastor told me. And he said well, did you read the word for yourself? What does the word say? And at that moment I couldn't even tell him.
Chandra Sapp:Now, mind you, I grew up in a church. I've been saved for a lot of years, I'm a church girl People call me a church girl but for the past 15 years I revered so much this one man and I started to idolize him and place him above God. So everything he told me it was okay, it doesn't matter what the Bible says, what is he saying? Because he said he was a prophet and there are prophets, don't get me wrong. But when someone says that to you, think with everything they say, it comes from God. So when I started saying things to my husband, he would be like, wait a minute. Hold on. You know, shondra, that doesn't. That's not God. And so, and then, as time went on, it started to cause conflict between me and him, because our point was to get married and I knew this was my husband and my pastor at the time knew this was my husband too. He even said it. But then, as we got closer to marriage, things started being done and said that were contrary to things that I knew what was right. He was right. It's like something was trying to. He was trying to come between us and I'm like I've been single, you know, I was divorced, got remarried. We've been praying for this. This is a godly man, he loves. The Lord hands down. Why would you not want this marriage to take place?
Chandra Sapp:And then we started to realize that this was a control thing, because it was known that I was on my way out, cause of course, I was gonna follow my husband, and so the closer it got to me leaving, it started getting tighter and tighter. The reins of control started getting tighter to the point where I was being called out in church, in service, and I'm looking like Like this can't be happening to the point where I was embarrassed and shamed in church and I would just not want to come back. But I was like, no, shonda, you got to come back, you got to come. And so I start telling my husband he's like this is not God, you can't. And at that moment I knew that I had to make a decision. I said because if I want to move forward in my life and if I, if I want me and my future husband to have a healthy relationship I knew the environment I was in wasn't going to work.
Chandra Sapp:So I I made that decision to leave, you know, prematurely, and I kind of was pushed out in a sense, because I did ask my pastor. I said, well, can I just take a break for a little bit, because it was too much, to the point where I didn't want to come. He said, no, don't come back. And I'm like wait a minute. I just was asking you to take a break and he said, no, the Lord told me to release you. And at that moment I was like you know what, maybe God is saying that, but not in the way he was saying it, but nowhere I needed to move on. And I just at that time I was like this is just it for me. And looking back, I do not regret it. I mean I have more peace, more joy. I actually feel like I'm getting to know God for who he is. I don't have a man telling me who God is. I'm finding out for myself who God is.
Tony Tolson:Yeah, I can totally relate and you know, for me, I remember you know God and I have had an interesting journey together in the sense that I've always said people say, well, what do you, how do you know what the will of God is? Well, that's a really loaded question it is, but I've always believed that God opens doors. He does, and so I walk through open doors. I don't, I don't ramrod the closed ones, right, and that's that's God has got, and I have worked on that on that plan my whole life and it seems to work well.
Tony Tolson:for me it's what makes sense it. For me, it's the way that I receive direction the best, and so he works with me in that way, and so I remember I was at this Southern Baptist Church inner city, and it was a position that was funded by the mission board because it was inner city and the funding was done, and so I needed to find something else, and so I was praying to the Lord.
Tony Tolson:Lord, please, please, please, let me just have a regular job, like a rate, like with a briefcase and assistant, that's what. Just let me have that and I promise I will, lord, I will be in your, in your house of the Lord, every time I can. I will, I will, I will serve, I will lead a choir, I will work in you, whatever, but I just don't want to be paid by the church. I want freedom. Yeah, because I hadn't felt freedom, me either.
Chandra Sapp:And even in that Southern Baptist Church it was.
Tony Tolson:It was a lot like that in that sense, because the management style, if you will, of that organization was so top down that the top of the organization was the pastor, not Jesus Christ.
Chandra Sapp:Yes.
Tony Tolson:And, and you know, even in our church I will say that our pastor is the leader, but he always defers to the Holy Spirit.
Chandra Sapp:He does.
Tony Tolson:And and not in a way that makes him look better. You know we I had been in environments where the Holy Spirit was used to make the pastor look better.
Chandra Sapp:Yes.
Tony Tolson:And the pastor wielded the Holy Spirit like like a almost like a whip and it that that was the reality and I just never understood that. I just kept believing God. You're going to take me a place where that's not how it works.
Chandra Sapp:Yeah, and, like I said, it's like you're like okay, the word says you know we have to fear God and the fact we reverence him, we know who he is, he's the king of kings. But it's freedom. In your walk with Christ, you're not supposed to be walking in fear. And that's how it was. I was walking in fear every day, thinking, oh, if I do this, I've sinned, I've gone to hell. Even going to family reunions, hank, like you said, hanging with people that aren't living the same life, that I am, not that I'm trying to sin, but I felt like I was sinning and it was like mental torture. That's what it was and that's not who God is. God is freedom, he's joy, he's peace. He's not that life. That's not who he is Right.
Tony Tolson:And your example is, when you're there, a lot of times people pick up on those tones and that, that attitude that you've got inside of you, and that's when people say they're trying, they think they're better than me yes. And that, and I never felt better than anyone, so I but. So here I was in this very unique situation where I said God, if you'll just help me with this? So I said now, if you give me a ministry position, I will immediately go there, no question.
Tony Tolson:I go through the open door, and so I looked in the best place to find a ministry position, which is the newspaper. Okay, you know, I said, lord, you know it's a technicality, right, I'm looking. So here was just showed up in the newspaper one day. This is, of course, this many years.
Tony Tolson:Yeah, I was about to say you know so, but I I opened out of this paper. There was. It was at a Methodist church. They were looking for a choir director and they were going to pay. I forget what it was like $500 a week or $300 a week or I don't remember what it was, but anyways, it was enough that I was like okay, cool, I'll get to serve you, use my musical talent in the Methodist church, which I knew nothing about by the way.
Tony Tolson:I only knew about John Wesley, but not the Methodist church. And so, and it was a woman pastor, and so I, of course I have turned my resignation, and it was a little bit before the end of the funding, and so you know they, where are you going? And so it, of course, I'm just like, well, I'm going to this Methodist church over there. Oh my gosh, I was literally asked this why have you lost your faith?
Chandra Sapp:Yeah, me too.
Tony Tolson:Why have you lost your faith? Do you not believe in God anymore?
Chandra Sapp:I was told that I'm not just walking away from church, I'm walking away from God. And I was like, no, I'm not, I'm going to another church with my husband, I'm going back. But I was told that I'm walking away from God and when that was said, it's like everything came to me, like this pastor in church really feels like this is the only way to go. Like how can you say I'm walking away from God because I'm leaving a person? God is big, he's everywhere, there's churches and ministries all over and I was like this is really what they believe.
Tony Tolson:It is what they believe. Yeah, and when and that's such a dangerous thing that happens with people, men and women in ministry paid and not paid, where they really believe that God's given them the corner of the market.
Chandra Sapp:Right.
Tony Tolson:They got it and they got the truth and everybody else doesn't. And you know what I was in that Methodist church I went happily. By the way, the rest of that story is I, when I went into interview, I had, before I accept the offer, obviously went into interview and I took in my like I think it was 12 points of Baptist doctrine I ended the interview with I was born Baptist, raised Baptist and my funeral be officiated by a.
Chandra Sapp:Baptist minister.
Tony Tolson:No, I told him my funeral be officiated by a Baptist minister. Do they have any problems with that? And they said no. In fact, we're very impressed and we want to move forward with you.
Chandra Sapp:Wow.
Tony Tolson:And we'll give you a call later. So I get a call later that night or the next day and I'm like great, part time at the church. And the rest of the story is I was in negotiations with a creative, a school of creative and performing arts and a cemetery park system in Florida, both of which I could give a briefcase and an assistant. Both of them had told me to begin looking for an assistant as I was in negotiations with them and counter offers. So I'm like, woohoo, I'm counter offering and I'm getting Jesus, look at you, lord, you're taking care of it. So they call me and they said well, we definitely want to hire you, but we have a new offer for you. I was like, oh my God, what's happening? We originally said we'd like to have you part time, but with your skill set, with, with your strong beliefs and convictions, we know that you would be perfect, also in our youth ministry. So we would like to combine the two positions, offer you a full time salary, a house and benefits.
Chandra Sapp:Wow, wow, beyond what you expected.
Tony Tolson:Exactly and I said I accept, yeah. And I immediately called the two companies and said I can't take the offer. I'm so sorry they're like what we're so far down the road I know. But a church offered me the job and guy told God, if a church came to me first, I would cut, take care of it. So here I was, back in church ministry, but what I found was freedom freedom freedom.
Tony Tolson:I found freedom at the Methodist church. I didn't even think they knew who Jesus was, but I was bringing Jesus. I was the Baptist missionary to the Methodist church, sent by Jesus. I just knew I was taking the truth. Come to find out they already had Jesus, but they had the Jesus of the Bible that lets you do things. They went to movies, they were short pants and nobody talked about it.
Tony Tolson:In fact, I went to a men's dinner and they let people at the men's dinner at the restaurant by beer at the church men's dinner. We don't do that at our church, by the way, but you know why? Because we've got recovering alcoholics. But at that church, I don't know, maybe there were some recovering alcoholics. They just drank anyways, it wasn't a thing.
Tony Tolson:Because the Bible says don't be a stumbling block. It also says about alcohol, don't drink to excess. And it also says, you know, don't tempt yourself. So it's safest, probably not to drink at all, right, but if you are going to drink, you got to drink in moderation. Some people can't do that. So we don't do that at our church, right. But I'm not saying there aren't people who drink at our church, we don't advocate it, we just say it's not the best idea, right. But I will say this I found freedom, right, and I never bought beer at the men's dinner. Just let me put that out there. Chandra, okay, I didn't do that. I don't like beer, I don't have anything like that, okay. So I don't even like the smell of beer, but it smells nasty to me. But here there's men on this podcast are going, pastor Tony, it's so good, but you know what? Listen, here's what I found. I had to deconstruct over the course of many years, what I thought I knew was truth.
Chandra Sapp:Me too.
Tony Tolson:And I had to let. I had to go back to the word, back to the source. And the source wasn't somebody that was a self-professing prophet or had a revelation from God that was separate from Scripture. They heard it in a vision or a dream or the audible voice about me. That's what it was.
Chandra Sapp:Yep.
Tony Tolson:By the way, one of these guys that did this was also quite abusive to his wife and ended up cheating on her and at a church picnic, was patting women's behinds Right and was telling me I was backslidden. It was really hard for me to reconcile all that as a young man, but thank God I had enough Scripture to know. The Bible says that you hide God's word in your hearts, you may not sin against him, and that we should study to show ourselves approved. Workmen need to not be ashamed because they can rightly divide the word of truth Right. So I had enough of it hidden in my heart that I could.
Tony Tolson:When I had these things come up, I'm like hmm yeah that's not the one plus one is not equal, equaling two here for me. So here's the simple truth. We have people in the world who view Christianity and view the church through the lens of the scandals of the church. The church, the big C, not our church or a specific church, but the church, universal meaning. You put all those brands of churches together Methodist, baptist, independent, pentecostal, holiness, piscopal, you and then you got all the sub brands of all the ones I just mentioned. Right, you could look, you put all those together. That's what the world knows. They call that the church. They don't understand the differences between us. Here's the difference for me.
Tony Tolson:I only go to a church who which focuses on the relationship with Jesus. If there is a focus on adoring the pastor, reverencing the pastor, reverencing the staff being there every minute, every weekend, that we, if the church plans a closet clean out party, everybody shows up and everybody's bumping into each other cleaning out one closet. I mean that's not my brand of church. And that goes for staff and membership. If the staff's expected to be there for every single thing, that's not the kind of church I want to be at. Guess what Staff have things to do with their family and they need to rest too.
Chandra Sapp:Yeah, and that's one thing I loved about restoration place. That was so different. It's like you know, my husband had to go on her way before I did, so it's like my first time coming there. I was nervous because I wasn't even allowed to go to other churches that whole 15 years, so I only knew that. And so what I loved is, immediately I felt first of all the love and I felt the freedom, you know, and I looked, I was like why people are actually here and they're wearing pants. I was like they're wearing jeans. I was like for us, that was like a no, you had to come to.
Tony Tolson:They were wearing skinny jeans.
Chandra Sapp:I know, and I was like, oh my God. And I was like my husband was like, yeah, you know, and he's looking at me and I'm just like you don't understand, I'm not used to this. And if you know we have, we want to go away for a weekend, guess what? We can go. We don't have to call the pastor and tell him and ask for permission. I was like shocked. And if I'm tired, I was like well, maybe we can, we can look at it online. I'm like we can and it sounds so elementary, but that's how much that I was indoctrinated with false teaching. Because that's what it was and it was that imbalance. Because you know, how can you have healthy families and relationships if you don't have the freedom to develop those outside the church? If you spend every day in church, you're not spending time with your family. Not saying you don't bring your family to church, but it's a balance.
Tony Tolson:And not only that. If you're spending all this time in church Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night, Saturday, then there's all the things in between the committee meetings and the there's no time for anything else. And, by the way, we don't have committees at restoration either, so that we give you all that time back too. But listen, all of that, you're not even getting time to be a witness in the world.
Chandra Sapp:You're not.
Tony Tolson:The Bible says to go into the highways and byways right To preach and teach and share the gospel, you know, so they can repent and be baptized. You can't do that. We it? I was raised in a Yalcom church. Go, invite them. They're going to get the message here. Their lives will be transformed here in the building. Then they'll be baptized here and then they'll be here and that's it. That's how you get in the club, that's how you get to Jesus. That's how you get to heaven. It's through this church. And if they left and that was bad that meant they were bad people because they left and we don't have anything to do after they leave Same thing with me.
Chandra Sapp:Like we had people come and go over the years and every time they left I would notice that over the pulpit it was always they did something like they're wrong and after a while you're like wait a minute, if 50 people keep leaving, is it them or is it you?
Tony Tolson:The common denominator, is you Right? But here's what I think I want to pivot to, chandra. You know we we're talking about the way people view the church and this is a black eye on the church and the Christian. And one of the things that Eric you know he speaks generally about things and I don't agree with everything Eric says, or as we heard earlier, but I will say what I do agree with is sometimes you have to speak out against the things that are wrong, and I don't like where Christians air all their business on social media.
Tony Tolson:But I will say, when you are, there's two things that are not alike. You got to call out the differences and while when you call out those differences, at least like with the church that you came from or I came from, we don't have to say we're not like ex church. We need to proclaim the gospel, that's according to scripture, and make sure we keep doing that and keep showing the love of God. We don't have to tell people we're not like that.
Tony Tolson:We have to tell them we're like Jesus. And being like Jesus means it's nothing like anything else and and you know not that there's not other churches that are like us, and there are Everybody's got their own flavor of of church culture and that flavor is not right or wrong, it's. You know, it's like music, right, some people like hip hop sounds and people like a little rap. You know we don't do either those at restoration, but I can be used to present the gospel, absolutely right. You know we probably don't have that guy that's saying the Slim Shady song come and lead worship on Sunday, but I mean he somebody yeah, is that Eminem?
Chandra Sapp:Okay, yeah.
Tony Tolson:I don't know. I'd say I like Eminems, though, but I'll tell you this we, it's important that you have the right people lead, because they always point back to Jesus, and we're careful about that, and we should be careful about that in our own life that we point back to Jesus, because the world's looking for something, and they're not looking for a powerful man or a powerful woman with all the answers. They're looking for vulnerability, authenticity, somebody just to be who they really are and be transparent, transparent right.
Tony Tolson:I mean I, I'm not perfect. I'm going to screw up and sometimes I'm going to offend you. I'm going to fail to answer a phone call, respond to a text, there's going to be a delay, I might be distracted when you're talking to me and I apologize in advance and at the time if I, if I see it happening, but I am not perfect.
Chandra Sapp:Right.
Tony Tolson:But in all things 1 Corinthians 13 love, Yep, and I want to be known as someone who loves people, and so you know, at restoration I will tell you that we want people who are wounded to come and be made whole. We believe that people who need spiritual and emotional healing can receive that through the ministries of our church, which aren't just Sunday morning. There's small groups, there's lots of opportunity People. We even have a bowling group, we have all kinds of things. But it doesn't matter where you get that healing. If it's at restoration or somewhere else, you have to go get it.
Chandra Sapp:Yeah, you have to. Yeah, Because because what I was, like I was saying earlier, is you have to separate the hurt and the trauma from who God is.
Tony Tolson:That's right.
Chandra Sapp:And that's the process I had to go through is, and any of the I've been saved a long time. I had to realize, okay, this is a man doing this, this is not God doing this, and I think the problem is the world. Like you said, they put church in one little bubble, but humans and people are operating churches and they're not perfect, but we serve a perfect God and we strive to be perfect. So you have to separate who God is as Him being the king of King, lord of Lord, versus a man that's a pastor over church, because, like you said, we fail as people, but God doesn't fail.
Tony Tolson:If you're looking to do a man or a woman to be your source of truth and to remain consistent and to never fail you or never tell you something wrong, you're setting yourself up for failure.
Tony Tolson:every time, every time they will disappoint you sorely. I will disappoint you sorely. I can only tell you what I know about Jesus, what I've experienced about Jesus, what I've read in the Word, what I know to be true, and I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna sin and I'm gonna disappoint you, but in all things I'm gonna love you, and I hope you can love me through my failings as much as I love you through yours, and so it doesn't matter where you come from, I'm gonna love you for who you are.
Tony Tolson:As Eric was talking about, though, these cover-ups that churches and ministries do in the past and even today, even some prominent Christian colleges and some prominent names, and especially sons of prominent names, have done some horrible things recently, and those people don't represent my God, they represent their brand, and in most of those cases, they really only represent their brand.
Tony Tolson:They kind of quit representing Jesus a long time ago, but the world doesn't understand that, and so all we can do is counter what the devil meant for evil and let God turn that for good and just say you're right. That's a shining example of somebody who left their first love, because when you first get to know Jesus Christ, and as long as you stay in relationship with Him. It's just like having a best friend or a wife. You can walk away from that best friend or that wife and if you don't maintain that relationship you're not gonna have it. And we've got to really focus on our own selves and look at the world through fresh eyes and understand. We're not in a church era any longer. They don't see churches as having the answer. But what you'll find is that once they see the person of Jesus through the life of the true believer, while the church is still suspect, jesus is not.
Chandra Sapp:He's not yep.
Tony Tolson:So there's an opportunity for us as believers, and so today, chandra, I want you to just offer a challenge to our listeners, and then I'll wrap it up. What challenge would you give someone who's been heard in church and has realized they need something else? And they're not ready to write God off or write the church off yet, but they need something new and they need something real and they need something fast. What would you recommend?
Chandra Sapp:Well, I would recommend them to try Jesus. Try who he is. Not try a pastor or a church, but try him really. Get to know him for yourself. Because if you get to know him, you will know who he is. Just like if you're in a marriage or, like you say, you have a best friend. You know them in and out, you know their ups and their downs, but if you really get to know God, you will hold on to that. So, no matter who hurt you or what hurts you, you will always go back to God because you know that he loved you and who he is.
Chandra Sapp:And just don't put the church in a box. Don't put them in a box Because in life, just like you could have had multiple marriages and your spouse hurt you, you could have had a boss that hurt you, but you don't give up on going to work every day, you don't give up on trying to find love again. So don't give up, because God has a place, he has a ministry for you. So don't give up on God. You might give up on a person or a place, but don't give up on God, because these people are human, but God is it. So just open up yourself again open up your heart and you will find joy. You will find peace and you will be thankful for the lessons that you've gone through, because it will make you a bigger and a better person.
Tony Tolson:Yeah, so wise. Well, I just wanna thank you, chandra, for being here today, and it is I think it's with great passion that I just plead with anybody who's listening. If you're going through a tough time and you've got some baggage from your past that you're just wounded by other Christians or a ministry, do what Chandra said try Jesus out. Try Jesus out. Connect with a brother or sister who you know is real and spend some time discipling with them, meaning get into the word and cut out. Just take the things that you have a problem with and go back to the word and see just how true that stuff is, and you'll probably find what hurt you wasn't from the word and wasn't from God to begin with, because he's never gonna hurt you no, he won't, and so those hurts did not come from him. But you gotta give God a chance. Get back to the source. Quit playing telephone.
Tony Tolson:Christian where you've heard a truth from somebody who heard a truth from somebody who heard a truth and before long, and their mama and their grandmama told them that Exactly and they never looked in the word. And by the time you hear it from the person you heard it from, it's all twisted. And by the way when we twist things, we always twist them in our favor.
Chandra Sapp:Yep, yes, we do.
Tony Tolson:So turn it back to the Lord, and he's always looking out for you.
Podcast:And it's always in your favor. So today.
Tony Tolson:I wanna thank you again for joining us, for all the Kingsmen and Shandra. Again thank you, and so please, if you have any questions, reach out to us at akmorg. Akmorg. That's all the Kingsmen, akmorg, and you can, of course, post comments on your podcast channel or your app that you're using there, and again, we thank you for joining us today, like this and share it so other people can hear the truth. Thank you again, good day.
Podcast:Thank you for joining us today on All the Kingsmen. Please share, subscribe and like the podcast anytime you can. To contact Pastor Tony, email Tony at myRPTorg. He would love to connect with you On behalf of Pastor Tony and all of us at Restoration Place. Have a great week and we will see you next time.
